About last night ...

posted by Mike Boone at 22h57 EST on Dec 19


Welcome back, MVC.

Most Valuable Canadien ... and the C on the jersey is next.

The two goals were nice.

They put an exclamation mark on Andrei Markov's return to the lineup.

Michel Bergeron says Markov is worth a two goal swing: one more goal per game for the Canadiens, one fewer against.

What's important, though – and what I hope we'll see through the balance of this road trip – is the ripple effect of having the team's best player back in the lineup.

Markov makes the D better.

 



 

Markov is the ideal partner for Jaro Spacek.

Markov's minutes – 20:25 on Long Island, and it will be 25 in Atlanta – mean that Ryan O'Byrne plays 12:11. It means Marc-André Bergeron is a fourth-line forward and PP specialist.

It means 23 minutes for a solid, stay-at-home pairing: the Of Mice and Men duo of Josh Gorges and Hal Gill.

And the D will be more solid still when Roman Hamrlik returns.

The game reinforced the Martin Mantra: Special teams and goaltending make the difference.

All three Canadiens goial were scored on the power play.

The penalty kill was perfect through six shorthanded situations, including three penalties to ace PK guy Tomas Plekanec.

And the goaltending ...

Jaro Halk thinks he's a number 1 goalie.

So does his agent.

It's easy to talk. But Jaro walks the walk – and he does so at the most opportune times.

The Canadiens were flundering last season when Halak won four straight starts in February – facing an average in excess of 40 shots.

Halak earned his shutout by stopping 40 shots. The Islanders are not the Pittsburgh Penguins, but Halak made many spectacular stops – notably against Matt Moulson – at critical times.

Halak will start in Atlanta on Monday. And if he beats the Thrashers ...

Maybe Bob Gainey shouldn't be in such a rush to trade this guy.

The gang on L'Antichambre stalked a lot about the importance of playing .500 hockey. The consensus was it's crucial to be at that level after the game against the Panthers on Dec. 31.

That should keep the Canadiens in the thick of a crazy race, where five points separate eighth place from 14th.

But .500 might not be enough to make the playoffs. CKAC's Michel Langevin calculates it will take at least 93 points.

The Canadiens have 35 points after 37 games. They would need 58 in their final 45 games to hit that projected cutoff point.

Not easy. 

But with Markov back six weks earleir than anyone had hoped, not impossible.

The next return to the lineup I'm looking forward to is Brian Gionta's. It will be timely ebcause we're starting to see the best of Scott Gomez.

It's hard not to think of that ridiculous contract. But this grossly overpaid guy can play hockey.

A graduate of Lou U and the New Jersey system, Gomez is one of the team's most conscientious and effective  D-zone forwards. He is excellent on the PK and good on the second wave of the PP.

Gomez is one of the few Canadiens who can consistently carry the puck into the offensive zone. He has excellent vision and makes great passes.

The problem is his wingers can't ascore. And that should change when Gionta returns. Those two with Sergei Kostitsyn or Benoit Pouliot could finally give this team a viable second scoring line to complement Plekanec, Mike Cammalleri (blanked on the road ... again) and Andrei Kostitsyn.

The third line had a good night. Glen Metropolit played a smart, aggressive game and got a goal off Gomez's perfect feed. That's four on the power play for a guy whom no one saw as a PP player. Travis Moen was what he's been all year: a hard-working, dependable winger. Max-Pac had three shots on goal, but I'm starting to wonder whether this first-round pick – for whom the Canadiens passed on David Perron – will ever get 20 in the NHL.

Maxim Lapierre was pressed into PK service while Pleks was in the box and played well. But he continues to do nothing 5-on-5. BGL played 6:25 and contributed a stern lecture to Islanders' behemoth Andy Sutton – who, it must be said, was less feisty thereafter.

And with a W within their grasp, the Canadiens played a nice shutdown third period.

In addition to 40 SoG, the Canadiens blocked 24 (five by Gill, four by Gorges) and there were 11 misses. That's 75 shot opportunities – for the New York Islanders.

It won't do to give Ilya Kovalchuk that many chances.

 


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http://www.kelowna.com/2009/12/21/snowbound-canadiens-prepare-to-play-thrashers/

sounds like no Gio tonight....kinda expected but I was really hoping they could dress him and have him play a limited role since we seem to have a few 5 minute players every game anyway.  Hammer apparently hasn't skated since last Wednesday......


any word on Hammer tonight? I wonder how Gionta's fitness level is because I would think that would pretty well be his only obstacle right now...if he's back practicing then the injury is healed ...more than likely he returns later in the week but I wouldn't be shocked to hear he plays tonight if he was able to somewhat maintain his fitness level.  If they can go tonight I think they do....at this stage the 2 points is more important than the two extra days.....a slightly winded Gionta and Hammer are still god enough to play on this team right now. We are in a 45 game first round of the playoffs as we speak....58 points takes us to the "next round".  By weeks end we could very  well be looking at a very different lineup with POuiliot looking good in Hamilton, Gionta and Hammer back.  Too little too late? time will tell but it will sure has hell be  far more entertaining knowing that other lines may possibly score and that a 1 goal deficit isn't like climbing Mount Everest.  Since we don't really play four lines rigtht now anyway why not have Gionta and Hammer play the minutes we can instead of someone like BGL or one of the other guys seeing limited time...if limiteed time is all they are able to play.


twocents's picture

God enough, indeed. ;o)


amen.


24 Cups's picture

Further to yesterday's discussion.  Here is the chart for buying out Scott Gomez.  The 3rd and 4th years are rough but you also won't be paying big coin to Dmen such as Hamrlik and Spacek for those two years.  You take Gomez's buyout and add it to Carter's 5M and you basically break even (except for the two years I just mentioned).  You now have a #1 centre who is 24, has great size, and still has some upside.  He also scores 40 goals a year instead of 18.

This was all started with an offbeat post yesterday that really wasn't meant to be taken too seriously.  However, there is always an element of truth in all sarcasm.  If you don't want to live with the Gomez buyout, then a more realistic approach would be to trade for Carter and let Pleks walk at the end of the eyar.  The deal would be Halak & Pleks & Salary Dump (Gill?) for Carter & Boucher.  Next year you have a mature back-up for Price and Carter and Gomez as your 1-2 punch at centre and on the PP.


SCOTT GOMEZ BUYOUT FROM CAPGEEK.COM
2010-2011: $1,482,143
2011-2012: $1,982,143
2012-2013: $3,982,143
2013-2014: $4,982,143
2014-2015: $2,125,000
2015-2016: $2,125,000
2016-2017: $2,125,000
2017-2018: $2,125,000


twocents's picture

Steve, have you any insight into why the buyout numbers vary so much from year to year? His salary does tail off in the last few years, but 2013-2014 and even 2012-2013 seem out of whack. Especially since the first few years are all at the same salary.

And yes the Pleks/Halak trade is the one I suggested yesterday and is actually plausible.

(On a side note, in that scenario we would not be letting Pleks walk, we be using him as an asset to acguire the big centre we have needed for far too long. I am sure that was just an oversight in your post.)


Chris's picture

I can help with this question...the rules are here:  http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#buyouts

It is a more complicated formula than most people realize.  Essentially, it boils down to:

Salary Cap Buyout Hit = Salary Cap Hit - (Annual Salary - Annual Buyout Payment)

Plugging in rough numbers for Scott Gomez on the idea that he is bought out this summer:

Remaining salary:  $8 M + $7.5 M + $5.5 M + $4.5 M = $25.5 M

Salary Cap Hit:  $7.357 M

Buyout Amount (2/3 of remaining salary):  $17 M

Buyout Payment (Buyout amount spread out over double remaining term, 8 years in this case):  $2.125 M

Buyout Cap Hits:

  • 2009-10:  $7.357 M - ($8 M - $2.125 M) = $1.482 M
  • 2010-11:  $7.357 M - ($7.5 M - $2.125 M) = $1.982 M
  • 2011-12:  $7.357 M - ($5.5 M - $2.125 M) = $3.982 M
  • 2012-13:  $7.357 M - ($4.5 M - $2.125 M) = $4.982 M
  • 2013-14:  $0 M - ($0 M - $2.125 M) = $2.125 M
  • 2014-15:  $0 M - ($0 M - $2.125 M) = $2.125 M
  • 2015-16:  $0 M - ($0 M - $2.125 M) = $2.125 M
  • 2016-17:  $0 M - ($0 M - $2.125 M) = $2.125 M

This formula was put in place to stop teams from front loading contracts and then buying out out players to get around the salary cap.  There is also a rule that a salary can not drop by more than half in any given year to try and prevent these things.  Despite this, there is a common misconception that front-loaded contracts are created to make buyouts easier...if anything, a back-loaded contract makes things better, but no agent would ever agree to the bulk of the money coming in years where the team can buy the player out. 

The front-loaded contract is NOT good cap management...it is good financial management for the team because the owner pays out less hard cash.  From a salary cap point of view, those contracts are killers if the player's abilities fall off necessitating a buyout.  As others have pointed out previously, it does make it easier to trade a player to a poor team looking to spend to the cap floor, however, as they pay the player a lot less than his cap hit.  This was the justification for the Panthers picking up Bryan McCabe a couple of years ago.

By the way, the intriguing thing is that if you structure salaries right, it is actually possible to get a salary cap credit by buying a player out.  But it's tough to structure a contract that way, and I'm sure that the agents are watching out for that as it would make their client VERY vulnerable to a cap-pinched team.  :)


twocents's picture

Thanks, Chris. That's great.


24 Cups's picture

Eric - I have no idea why the numbers vary and trust me I've given some time and effort to figure out all this cap mumbo jumbo. 

The Molsons and Bob Gainey are not going to buyout Gomez after just one year.  We are also going to have a slight problem signing some of our RFAs to reasonable contracts this summer.  With that in mind, this trade is quite realistic.  Philly gets a goalie they need and have Pleks for the rest of the year.  They can afford to lose Carter due to the fact they still have lots of blue chippers up front.  Gill is another nice addition to their blueline.  The only real drawback is that his contract is for two years.  However, they land up with additional cap space once Carter and Pleks are gone in July.

Montreal solves the biggest problem the team has had for the past ten years.  It's not a band-aid but a real legit young forward who can play centre and score goals.  It also takes some of the heat off of Gomez.  Carter gets to become a star in a major hockey market and is free of the Richards/Pronger/Briere crap that is going on in Philadelphia.  All we give up is an asset (Halak) and a UFA Dman in Gill.  Pleks doesn't really count in the equation because he would walk at the end of the year.  Gill gets replaced by O'Byrne (play the kid every game for the rest of the year and let him grow into his job) and we also can start making use of Weber or Carle.  We're not winning the Cup this year so let the damn kids get some ice.  Two years from now we have some decent building blocks to go along with a mature Carey Price in net.  MaxPac will be our 6th forward by then and AK should be ready to score 35 goals.  We would also have three forwards in our top six that have decent size and scoring ability.  The smurf curse will have been lifted.

This move could really take us in a different direction.  And Philly may be just desperate enough to do it.  Firing the coach certainly didn't work. 


twocents's picture

To be honest, they don't even need to be that desperate. If we limit the deal to Halak and Pleks, they would have the cap space, created by losing Carter, to sign Pleks to an extension. We could then shed Gill's salary in a separate move, bringing us a pick. 

Philly is very likely shopping Carter considering all the rumours, and Halak and Pleks would solve their biggest need, in nets, without losing much at the forward position. I really don't think it requires desperation on their part, it's a good fit for them, I think it needs Gainey being open to a fairly bold move considering Pleks excellent play this season.


... from Rejean Tremblay / La Presse -  Geoffrey Molson : An Owner that carries the Torch ..... (french version) .....  http://www.cyberpresse.ca/opinions/chroniqueurs/rejean-tremblay/200912/19/01-932547-geoffrey-molson-un-proprio-qui-porte-le-flambeau.php        ........  (interesting read).


ooder's picture

man why is there a halak vs price thing going on...

jeesus it's the motnreal canadiens not the montreal price's or halak's.

i like both goalies.. when price plays amazing it's great. He makes fantastic saves and pumps up the team as well as puts on a great show.

when halak plays great he is acrobatic, fast and very fun to watch.

these past 5 games price has been below average, so it was time for him to sit and let halak play.

there is nothing wrong with that. they are both young goalies who need ice times and have ups and downs.

even though i find halak is treated a little unfairly by the organization (and this is irrefutable), i still like watching both goalies go at it when they are at there best


The Cat's picture

Youre quite right, a team is more than the goalies. This climate comes from last year when Price was consistently  in nets even though he was struggling. It seemed Price's confidence/progression was put higher in importance than getting the wins, some players got repercussions from partying but not Price, and thats why people got upset.

Myself I was very critical of Price last year and at the beginning of the year, I wont hide from it, but he won me over, hes been solid. I think both are equally good. BUT the conditions that were in place when Price won me over was the 'win and youre in'. And as soon as Price put a few good performances together, it changed to 'play well and youre in' for Price and 'win and youre in' for Halak. And that last straw of unfairness was what caused Halak to say 'play me or trade me', I believe.


SeriousFan09's picture

It's Montreal, so there's always a goalie controversy.

Goalies will always be held to a too high, unfair standard when they play in Montreal, the Dryden and Roy legacies follow them around like storm clouds. Too often, goalies in Montreal must be brilliant at the start of their careers when in fact, Dryden and Roy were two of the biggest freaks of nature when it comes to NHL goaltending considering how well they played when they were young. There's no patience for development anymore, so some people will always suspect the new guy isn't up to snuff and that the backup is better and should get the job ahead of him.

I'm glad we have both Price and Halak available to the team right now and leave it as it is, I believe Price is better, but I think Halak could be a starter somewhere else as well and I'm exceptionally thankful that Cedrick Desjardins in Hamilton seems to be developing into a strong goalie as well, speaks well to the depth of Montreal's position in nets for years to come.

 

- I shall always remember Captain Koivu. http://habsandhockey.blogspot.com/


Nahlsy's picture

They always seem to forget that Dryden had the 70s Habs in front of him and NOBODY has ever had a team like that to play behind before or since, including Brodeur.

Roy was the best that ever played but it was his 4th season before his GAA ever got under 2.90 and his 5th season before his save %age ever got over .908. That was playing behind a blueline that featured a few hall of famers and some forwards that were synonymous with the Selke at that. The unrealistic standards that we hold some of these guys to is ridiculous. Roger Maris had his hair falling out in clumps during the '61 season because of the hate he was getting from his own fans when he was going to beat the Mick. That pressure damned near killed him, how the heck is a 21-22 yr old kid supposed to carry that same sort of pressure and expectation around when even a 2-1 or 3-2 shoot out loss is going to be hung around his neck with pure hatred?

MAB wasn't even in the NHL to start the season but, is 6th in the league for goals from the blueline, 2nd in PPGs, 5th in team scoring, 5th in team goals (2 out of 2nd), leads the team in PPG, 2nd on the team in PPA etc.

Yet EVERYTIME I look, it's one complaint, attack, insult, criticism about the guy after another. Talking about how useless he is. For a team that can bare score enough goals to keep themselves in games in which their goalie only allows 1 or 2, to have a defender doing so regularly SHOULD be a good thing but, no, we want Bobby fricken Orr from a guy that wasn't even considered for a contract by any NHL clubs in October and won't accept anything less.


Nahlsy's picture

It really does get tiresome doesn't it? Why all the hate for the team's goalies? Or worse, why the hate for people that don't hate whichever goalie one side or the other seems to insist on hating?

The habs have some of the best fans in the world but, by far the worst fans in the world as well. So much so that the biggest problem this team has is it's fans. They put unrealistic expectations on their players, crucify them and run them out of town. If a goalie faced 70 shots and let one in, he'd be hung for the one he let in, calling it a bad goal instead of focusing on the 69 he stopped or the fact that the team gave up 70 shots in the first place. If a player has a slow stretch in which he doesn't produce, they want him lynched, if an enforcer doesn't score 100 points, he's dead too. They put so many unrealistic expectations on the players and then make life so miserable on them when they don't live up to them that they drive the players to playing too tight and not playing up to their potential. Normally a strong fan base will motivate the team to play above themselves but, a large portion of Habs fans just eat their own and destroy these guys. This is why players like Lecavalier and Briere won't come here, hell no, not with french names, they'll be the first on the list to be thrown under the bus.

It makes it difficult to read most of what's posted here afterwards because a lot of the posters expect Beliveau, Richard, Richard and Lafleur to be playing in front of Savard, Robinson, Harvey and Lapointe, with Patrick Roy behind them. When they get Cammy/Gomez/Pleks in front of Gorges/Spacek/Hamr and Price behind them, they are inevitibly disappointed and drag everyone else down with them because of the rotten attitude that comes in here with them when they start trashing everyone and everything involved, whether it's deserved or not.


Hammer's picture

I must admit i am sick of reading the Halak vs Price saga. To be truthful the Habs fans should be thankful that they have both goalies, though I give the upside nod to Price. What the " informed don't seem to factor into the equation is how a Habs goalie has to be near perfect to record a win on any given night. Here you have a second tier team that can't score, see lack of production after Cammy for evidence. On most first tier teams such as SJ,Calgary,LA, you can let in a bad goal and most times it will not come back to 2X 4 you like it does with the habs. When you have a team like the habs who cannot score a bad goal always seems to stand out as there is no iginla,Thornton etc to take you off the hook. instead you sink. So HIO informed next time you crap on the goalies remember that in Habsville there is no room for error. See last weeks NJ Devils game for further reinforcement. They outplayed the Devils but could not buy a goal, then Whammo the Devils score with two minutes to go.


SBAH's picture

K-hab25's picture
I see the Halak fanboys have come out to play. Ha Ha Ha seriously I really hope 2 years from now we all still come to post on this site, the crow yee shall eat. Oh by the way the people who know a Hell of Alot more about hockey than any of us say Price is the superior talent, not that it matters to you know it alls. Accomplishment isn't talent, but Price has been superior there aswell. The we like Price more than the team argument is weak at best. We just believe he's our best shot at #25 and as the Halak fanboys say you get better, more consistent, when you play. Funny how all of you demean fans of Price for wanting him to do well and be the #1, yet you're the exact same with Halak. I believe there's a word for that, Hypocrite !!

Xtrahabsfan's picture

K-hab...you know your argument has hit the skids when Dean Dalley's on yer side ;)


Dean Dalley's picture

3 of Halak's 7 wins are against the NYI's. Price could beat them blindfolded.....

The poeple in here R PATHETIC. Price was all that the other day & now Halak is better..... LMFAO at U fans HA HA HA

 

 

"Isn't professional sports great. They continue to make the same stupid mistakes & still get paid"


Clay4bc's picture

Time to out Priceberg again...how are you doing, Priceberg? AKA "The Rock", "DillyDally", and 20 or so other personas...why not just pick one name and stick with it, man?

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


RiverviewCanadien's picture

We know who you cheer for  =) Not the team, you cheer for Price.

But why do you have to get so nasty if some people love Halak's play and praise him? Call people pathetic...grow up!

the TEAM got their 1st shutout, does that not excite you? I figured people would be going nuts at how they played, how the Specialty teams were (awesome again, steadily improving), but NOOOOOO we are stuck on this never ending battle between ourselves about who the best goalie is.

I am very passionate about this team and only want them to succeed. I have favorites that are currently playing, but I want EVERYONE to succeed day in and day out, I ENJOY watching the TEAM win games.


Nahlsy's picture

Reverse the words Price and Halak and this applies 100% to you though. I think that's the point being made here.


RiverviewCanadien's picture

you couldn't be farther from the truth. I praise all the good efforts by the TEAM. Never ceases to amaze me how most fans on this site will never give props to Halak, it is always because they played a weak team or there never was any scoring opportunities...

Halak was dialed in for this one and people cannot see past the fact the name plate read Halak and not Price for this one...


Nahlsy's picture

You should see how little credit the haters give Price. When it comes to getting a raw deal, Halak's got nothing on the other guy by a long shot. You're one that has to watch Price stand on his head for 2 weeks before you say ok so he had an ok stretch but, let's see him do it for 40 games in a row before.... etc etc. Halak then has one good game and you go coo coo for coacoa puffs. You may not even realize you do it, who knows?

Just an observation that both sides are guilty of the same thing.


Clay4bc's picture

Riverview never gets nasty about it - unlike yourself...and I think that was the point being made. Why can't we have a civil discussion on the matter?

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


Nahlsy's picture

Because you walk in with insults immediately. Until you grow up and behave civilly, and accept that other people have different opinions than you without needing to insult them for it, you won't have many civil discussions.


Clay4bc's picture

Pardon me? I think you made a mistake, and meant to direct that comment towards yourself. No problem though - I forgive you.

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


Nahlsy's picture

Please don't post to or about me anymore, you've been asked this repeatedly and seem to refuse to do so. Things are far more peaceful for everyone here when you're not trying to pick a fight with me (or rather the innocent victim to one of my brutal attacks, as I am sure you feel this is).

Now have your last word (insult) here and I'll not respond to it, but please don't continue this garbage throughout the rest of the threads on this board. I am sure nobody wishes to see it and I don't care to participate in the childish bickering.


Xtrahabsfan's picture

Dude ,you make yer bed ,you gets to sleep in it too


Nahlsy's picture

If you guys want to make each other's beds and sleep in them, by all means go right ahead.

I merely requested that I was left out of it, the request was directed to one poster in particular but, the same goes for anyone else that should decide to jump in to throw snowballs as well. He got his last word (insult) in and I'm keeping my word to not respond to it.

Out of respect for mr Boone and the rest of the posters here, I would request that it be left at that and we can all move on like civilized adults rather than bickering grade school kids on the playground at recess.


Clay4bc's picture

LOL, get over yourself, man! Always playing the victim, or the martyr...

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


Interesting stat:

 

BGL has a total of ZERO shots on goal throughout 19 games....man i know he averages like 3 mins of ice time a game but still i would have thought that he would get at least 1 shot on the goalie!


RiverviewCanadien's picture

Price wins a game and all is well and it's HIM doing ALL the work, Price loses a game and it is ALWAYS the forwards who are not scoring and the defense taking time off, never the soft ones he allowed (how could the Franchise let in a weak goal, no goalie in the NHL can stop the ones that make it past Price *rolls eyes*).

Halak gets a shutout, plays BRILLIANT, and people bitch about how bad he is and how he will NEVER be better than Price. One question "How the (Frank) do you know?". I have no idea who will be better, Price plays one style and Halak plays another, and their stats are almost identical. I just see way more of Price so he should be MILES better than Halak by now right? Then why is he not?

For all of you who are saying Price is way better and Halak will NEVER be as good, please explain your infinite wisdom to us all. Personally, I would love to see Halak have a 5 game stretch to see if he can improve (funny how it is tough to improve on your game when you don't play). THe best thing for this club IMHO is a tandem so both of these players can develop, and if Halak is meant to be traded, playing well and often, can only improve the return. And maybe we might NEED to hold on to him, both are so young.

Some fans seem pissed that it was Jaro who got the 1st SO and not Price, sheesh, there are other players on the Canadiens than just Carey Price.


Clay4bc's picture

You're preaching to the chior, Justin...agree totally. Except, I think Halak needs a lot more than 5 games. How about the rest of the season as the number one? Rotate Price in as the back-up every 4th game or so.

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


RiverviewCanadien's picture

The team as of now, to me anyways, does not have a #1. They have two young fantastic players Clayton. Tandem from the start. But really, Martin knows what he is doing, I will support whatever he does, even though I think Halak should be getting MORE ice time than he has, I can only imagine what Halak could do if the team had as much invested in him as they do with Price, and Price has improved this year, he is faster and smoother, more confidence, and usually does not let the goals bother him during the game.


CHsam's picture

I think Halak knows as much. He needs to play to get better. So ites amazing that whenever he gets a chance he usually does a good job.


Cape Breton's picture

Maybe Price should be put on the trading block. I'm sure he would bring in a great return, and we would still have an excellent goalie in Halak.


likehoy's picture

i know that a lot of people believe teams live and die by their goalies...but I for one treat both of them equally as part of the team and I don't pick favorites over either of them.

I only like to see them rotate more during slumps and to stay in the net while they're winning...that's all I ask for (to get us the big W)

- let's make it a triple crown: Impacts, Alouettes and now the Canadiens!


mjames's picture

You makea very valid point .

mjames


Cape Breton's picture

Interesting on Jacques Demers in this piece.

 

Reggie Fleming's greatest legacy

Not his destructive fists, but his dead brain

Last Updated: 20th December 2009, 8:13am

Reggie Fleming hated the piece I wrote on him. For years afterwards he let people know that if he ever ran into me, I’d be the next victim of his fists that destroyed so many opponents in his long NHL career as the most-feared of goons.

It seemed he was not able to accept reading the truths.

Now neuropathologists at Boston University say tests on the brain of Fleming, who died this past summer at 73, revealed chronic encephalopathy, a disease mostly related to boxers, football players; athletes vulnerable to head injuries. Reggie Fleming, who played before helmets, not only delivered thousands of punches to the head, but absorbed a great many.

The national article I wrote on Fleming was for The Canadian magazine in 1975. It was the cover, and titled

Requiem For Reggie. It would also become the title of my first book that carried the piece.

The dean of American hockey writers/authors Stan Fischler said it was “the greatest hockey story ever written.” Writer Roy MacGregor called it “a true classic in Canadian journalism.” These accolades for what it said about human exploitation and cruelty in the world of hockey.

Fleming was 39 and five years out of the NHL when I hooked up with him in Chicago. He was selling souvenir trinkets for a living. And playing hockey one night a week with a rag-tag team called the Kenosha Flyers in tank towns and small arenas beneath dim lights throwing long shadows.

Fleming anguished about how when his aging, hurting, fists weren’t so effective anymore, he was kissed off by the potentates who once embraced him, refusing to even take his phone calls or answer his letters pleading for another chance, pleading for work of some kind. When his fists and the attitude that drove them were diminished, Reggie Fleming was nothing more to them than useless, decaying meat.

He grew up an only child in a tough part of Montreal, his father a packaging inspector, his mother a cigarette girl at Delorimier Stadium. Fighting, he said, was not his true nature. His true nature, he said, was that of his little dog Mickey.

“Mickey didn’t go looking for trouble, but he’d never back down. He looked scary, but he really wasn’t. He’d only fight to protect me. He was a real friend, maybe the best I ever had.”

Fleming’s widowed mother told me: “Reggie was taught to respect his elders. In those days, you did as you were told. I’d come home from work and he’d have the potatoes and vegetables ready. He got into fights, yes, but what boy didn’t.”

On my last night with Fleming, I drove with him to his game, the Kenosha Flyers playing the Madison Blues before 415 fans. Fleming was by far the oldest player on the ice, trying hard to be effective as a player, not, anymore, looking to get into fights.

The tall, skinny, black kid on the Blues had other ideas. Cal Harris was 23. He didn’t see Reggie Fleming as he was then. He saw his NHL reputation. He saw a chance to make himself a bar-room hero.

“C’mon Fleming, drop your stick, drop it you chicken and we’ll see how tough you are.” Not too many years earlier Fleming would have demolished him. “Screw off,” said Fleming, turning away.

“Fight you coward, fight you fat slob,” screamed Harris. “Chicken,” the crowd yelled at Fleming. “Chicken. Chicken. Chicken.”

A minute later, it was over. Harris gave him a brutal beating, raining punches into his 39-year-old head. A bloody Fleming collapsed to the ice.

He left for the empty dressing room. Photographer Brian Willer and I followed him. He sat alone on a bench. His face was red, swollen, blood pouring down. He put his face in his battered hands. He was silent for a long time. And then from behind his hands he said softly, haltingly: “Sometimes...sometimes I wish I could control myself just once. It’s...it’s the kids. I go home and they see the cuts and the bruises and...”

Reggie Fleming, whose brain this week revealed all the damage from all the wars, let out a shuddering sigh, unable to finish the sentence.

Reggie Fleming, goon, whose dead brain this week, not his destructive fists, became his greatest legacy for good in the league that once would have nothing to do with him anymore.

 

Here is the story:

The legendary Reggie Fleming has died. Legendary not for his hockey skills, but his fierce fists as the goon of goons during his time in the NHL. In 1975, Earl McRae, who's now with the Ottawa Sun, profiled the then washed-up Fleming for The Canadian Magazine. New York's Stan Fischler, the dean of hockey writers, calls it "The best hockey story ever written." It was titled Requiem For Reggie. In memoriam, we present it again.

The storm howls over the dark and empty fields of the American Midwest, ragged clouds of snow sweep blindly across the headlights. The storm is getting worse as the night deepens. Reggie Fleming hunches over the steering wheel, silent, his eyes unblinking as they squint into the blizzard. Slowly his right foot presses down until the car is charging wildly into the night at 75 miles an hour, 20 over the speed limit. In the green reflection from the dashboard, Reggie Fleming's face is almost grotesque, the lumps and furrows from 18 seasons of violent warfare in pro hockey casting their own proud shadows. Fleetingly, his face is illuminated by the headlights of passing vehicles, the effect that of the horror face that jumps out of the darkness at the carnival. Fleming drives on in silence, the only sound the erratic rush of the wind along the windows.

He's 39 now, Fleming, but looks older; his hair, once a thick and golden brushcut, running thin and wispy, his stomach fat and soft. It's hard to believe he was once, and not so long ago, one of hockey's most brutal, meanest players; short on talent but long on the stick, a bully who carved his notoriety in the flesh of opposing players. He was a fighter and a good one and as long as he was that, the czars of hockey embraced him. When he wasn't, when he couldn't fight anymore, when he wouldn't fight anymore, the czars of hockey kissed him off and forgot about him. It was as if he had never existed. And the hurt was more than any he had ever felt on the ice. It hurt because he fought, he says, not for pleasure or profit but out of duty. His was the role of the good cop, always reflecting on his own special station in life, loyally serving the czars, nurturing his loyalty to friends and, above all, dedicating himself to the cause, the fine and honorable cause. It was the only way he knew, the only way asked until, in the end, the realization dawned on the czars that, in the words of Shakespeare, the heyday in the blood is tame, it’s humble. The good cop was no more. The body could no longer serve the mind. The mind could no longer serve the body.

But Reggie Fleming, driving through the long night to Madison, Wisconsin to play hockey for a fifth-rate team of nobodies in a league few have heard of and few ever will, Reggie Fleming refuses to believe-or accept-that the end, for him, has come. It is a tragic story and an old one. Maybe it’s because Reggie Fleming's gift was his fists. Fighters always seem the most reluctant of athletes to bow out. Joe Louis for example. Louis went out to the sound of trumpets, came back, and went out a last time to a funeral dirge. Sugar Ray was a long time in believing. Floyd Patterson still doesn't know. Marciano was smart, one of the few. They should all have listened to Marciano. He said he knew it was time to go when he would hesitate in finishing off an opponent he had in trouble instead of doing it fast like he used to. He worried that maybe he couldn't do it. He worried that he would tire trying and get knocked out himself. Marciano reflected on this and came to a conclusion. Age. Growing old. Growing old takes the confidence and slowly dissolves it and when the confidence is no longer there, neither is what it was that made you good in the first place. Marciano went out to trumpets. But most fighters don't, or can't, and maybe it's because they are fighters. Traditionally, fighting is the manly art, the essence of machismo, manhood itself. Most fighters, schooled in the streets, believe this. Not being able to fight is not being a man anymore. So they tell themselves lies and keep on trying.

Reggie Fleming keeps on trying.

He laughs at my question, a short, nervous laugh and gives me a quick sideways glance. "A lot of people must be wondering that," he says in his high, raspy voice. "Look, I just love hockey, that's all, I love hockey. I think I can still play hockey the way I always played it, does there have to be a damn reason? Embarrassed, I’m supposed to be embarrassed or something because this is a nothing league, a bunch-a bunch of bums they say. I don’t give a damn what people think of me, I don’t care, I can still play hockey and that's what I'm doing, okay?"

For 16 years Fleming played and fought in the National Hockey League, first with Montreal, then Chicago, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo. Then he went to the WHA, where he spent two years with the Chicago Cougars. He played and fought, he'll tell you often, when the NHL was the best hockey in the world, before expansion in 1967. He never did score 20 goals in a season, the figure that historically separates the haves from the have-nots, although he did manage 23 his first season with the Cougars. But he wasn't expected to score goals. He was expected to fight. He did get penalties, plenty of them, and his ability to beat people up was always the root of his ego. In one season, 1965-66, he had more penalty minutes than any other player in the NHL. Today, he ranks seventh on the all-time list for penalty minutes, 1,468 minutes, more than 24 hours in the box. But he ranks first for getting those penalty minutes for fighting. He had a ferocious left hook, a decent right and a beautiful head butt. He fought all the tough ones: Howe, Fontinato, Lindsay, Harris, Ferguson - and seldom lost. His only clear defeats came in the last few years; he lost to age.

The dreaded inevitable happened last May on a flight back from Houston. "We're coming back after the finals, we got beaten out by Houston, and Stapleton and Demers, Jacques Demers, he's the director of player personnel with the Cougars, they called me over and told me they wanted me to retire, just like that. They wanted me to have a press conference and say I'm quitting. Stapleton said there was a job for me with the club after I quit. My mind was all confused, just throwing it at me like that. I didn't want to quit and Stapleton said it was a nice way out for me because the club wasn't going to protect me in the draft coming up next week. I asked why and he wouldn't give me a straight answer, something about the numbers game. I told him, that's fine, I'll take my chances in the draft. Whitey said, well, if nobody wants me, there's a job for me in the organization."

Pat (Whitey) Stapleton, coach and general manager of the Cougars (and now part owner), felt Fleming, in his second year with the club and with only two goals, 12 assists and 49 minutes in penalties to show for the 45 games he'd played in, had lost much of his ability; the little he had as a player and, now, as a policeman too. Stapleton used Fleming sparingly because he was overweight and slow.

"The year before," says Fleming, "I had those 23 goals. And I got 93 minutes in penalties. That was second best minutes on the team. I was still aggressive but, goddam it, he wouldn't use me enough, wouldn't let me show it."

Fleming took his chances in the draft. He lost. Not one team wanted him. He waited a few days. Nobody phoned. So he decided to phone. He called Harry Howell, coach of the San Diego Mariners. Howell was a good friend. They'd played together once for three years. Howell wasn't in. Fleming left a message to return the call. Howell never did. Fleming talked to Ron Ingram, director of player personnel for San Diego. "I tried San Diego because I thought they could use a good policeman." Ingram said rosters were already completed. Fleming phoned Buck Houle, general manager of the Toronto Toros, and left a message. Houle didn't phone back. Fleming quit phoning around.

He got a job selling beer to bars and restaurants. It paid $12,000 a year plus mileage for the used van provided. The comedown was hard. He has a wife and two small kids, a big mortgage on a big house in Chicago and high payments on his 1974 Thunderbird. With the Cougars, he earned $35,000 his last season. Not much by today's hockey standards-but the most money Reggie Fleming ever made in his life. His wife is a part-time airline stewardess. She makes $9,000 a year. It helps, but she thinks maybe she should start trying to become a full-time stewardess.

Throughout the summer, Reggie Fleming tried to get in touch with Stapleton about the promised job. He had difficulty reaching Stapleton. He did reach Demers. Demers said talk to Stapleton. He finally reached him. Stapleton said he was busy with Team Canada 74, wait a bit. Fleming did. All summer. In the meantime, he sold his beer. He'd get up late, help get the kids, Kelly, 5, and Chris, 7,off to school then watch cartoons on TV all morning. He was waiting for the phone to ring. It sometimes did but not with the call he wanted. At noon, he'd get into the van and drive 200 miles or more around Chicago selling his beer. The job had a built-in hazard for Fleming. He had to drink beer to be sociable. His weight ballooned. Soon he weighed 220 pounds-35 over his playing weight. He ate a lot too because that's what he does when he's bored and restless and it didn't help. It's hard to adjust when the only thing you did for 18 years is no longer there.

In late August, the mailman came with a letter from the Cougars. It was a try-out form, the kind given rookies and free agents. Fleming had never asked for a try-out form. It said he could come to training camp but would only be paid $25 an exhibition game, and if he got hurt he'd have to pay himself. There were other equally humiliating, clauses. He threw the form into the garbage.

"Eighteen years I played pro hockey and they send me something like that," says Fleming, "If they don't know what I can do after 18 years then they can go to hell." But the worst was yet to come. On Sept. 3, he got another letter from the Cougars. It started "Dear Mr. Fleming" and was signed "Jacques Demers." It told him that he'd cleared waivers in early summer, was a free agent and should start looking elsewhere for a job. That was it. Nothing else.

"I was going to try and get in touch with Demers and Stapleton and ask what the hell happened to the job promise but then I thought why should I, people like that don't deserve to hear from me."

Instead, he phoned around again. He phoned Indianapolis. He heard they were looking for a coach. They promised to phone back. They didn't. He phoned an old friend, Jean-Guy Gendron, coach of the Quebec Nordiques. Gendron invited him to training camp. He went-and was soon cut. Too fat. Too slow. "And," says general manager Maurice Filion, "not the fighter he once was." Fleming went back home to Chicago. He phoned Emile Francis, coach and general manager of the New York Rangers. Francis had always treated him well and told him, when he was traded, to call should he ever be out of work. Francis listened and sympathized-but it was now November and all the jobs were filled.

Eighteen years, thought Fleming over and over, 18 years and you go out like this. But the ego refused to wither. He listened to an offer to play left wing for a team called the Kenosha (Wisconsin) Flyers in something called the Continental League. Travel is by car or however you can, the rinks resemble barns and fans seldom number more than a few hundred. The level of play is industrial league in Canada. The players aren't paid but Fleming would be-$100 a game; $3,600 a season. He accepted. And found out fast that the Flyers can't fly and the league isn't continental. But grandeur is often made of dreams.

"You know, I had this dog once," says Reggie Fleming. "His name was Mickey and, oh, he was beautiful. Part husky. He'd follow me everywhere and nobody would try to fight me if Mickey was with me. He'd go to school with me, meet me at noon, walk back to school with me and be there when I get out. Just like magic. Mickey didn't go looking for trouble but he'd never back down. He'd do anything I told him, anything. He looked scary but he really wasn't. He'd only fight to protect me. I remember when he died. I guess I was about 11. I held his paw in my hand and watched him die. I really loved Mickey. He was a real friend, maybe the best I ever had."

Reggie Fleming's survival ethic was spawned in the big red brick house in east-end Montreal where, as an only child, he lived with his parents, grandparents and nine uncles and aunts, some not much older than him. His father, Alex, was a government packaging inspector, a big raw-boned man who once played pro football in Montreal. His mother, Julie, worked as a cigarette girl at Delormier Stadium in the summer and a counter girl at the Forum in the winter. In those years, before the war, it was a culture that demanded youthful subservience to authority and Fleming's dad demanded more than most. Fleming lived in the big, old house for his first 13 years while his parents saved to buy a home of their own.

"We were a good Catholic family," says his widowed mother today, "we went to church every Sunday. Reggie was an altar boy. He was taught to respect his elders. In those days you did as you were told. It's the way it was. Reggie was a good boy. When we finally moved into our own home, I'd come home from work and he'd have the potatoes and vegetables ready. On Saturdays, he'd wash and mop the floors.

He got into fights, yes, but what boy didn't? But he didn't go haywire like some kids when they got older. He was too busy playing baseball and hockey and football. He was always out playing. He loved sports. He always tried his best."

Reggie Fleming remembers: "It was a tough neighborhood, English and French, mostly French and they were always attacking the English guys, right? You had to fight. I learned with my uncles, there were five of them, all older than me, that you didn't back down. I was sort of an outsider, being an only child and they'd pick on me. I wanted to prove I was better than them. I had to fight better. I got a reputation as a fighter, a tough guy. Only time they'd leave me alone was when I was with Mickey." He laughs. "But I only fought if challenged. You couldn't be a chicken."

He remembers high school, D'Arcy McGee, where he got to grade 11, never a very good student. "They made me protector of the cafeteria once. The girls would get out five minutes before the boys so they could buy stuff in the cafeteria without the boys bugging them. My job was to stand at the door and make sure none of the guys got in, right? Well, this guy, this tough guy, he got by me. I threw him out, smashed his head on the floor. Sure I felt bad but he should have listened to me. The teachers didn't want him in. I was just following orders. Same when the teacher would leave the room. Some guys would always fool around and I'd tell them to shut up. Nobody told me to do it, I just would. I felt it was unfair on the kids trying to get an education. It wasn't fair on the teachers. They had a job to do, right?" "Me, I was a dummy, it didn't matter, but some kids were trying to learn. I'd feel sorry for the teachers, you were supposed to listen to them, do what they said. I remember this one kid, fooling around, I busted his nose. He wouldn't stop fooling around. I could never understand it. All you had to do was what you were told and there'd be no problems."

 

Fleming played high school hockey and was invited to the training camp of the Montreal Junior Canadiens, coached by Sam Pollock, now general manager of the Canadiens of the NHL. He didn't make it his first year. He did his second. He made it on his ability and desire to fight to help his team. His mother: "Father and I would go to the games and Reggie would never be used unless Pollock wanted something stirred up. Then, out he'd come. It sickened me, I was crying inside. I'd see him all cut and bleeding. I was going to tell Pollock to stop using my child this way but Reggie told me 'Mother, don’t, it's my job, what I'm supposed to do, it's the only way I'll make it.' "

"My first game in Chicago," says Fleming, "there was a brawl and I just sort of watched. In the dressing room Rudy Pilous, he was our coach, he said 'Fleming, if your buddies are in trouble don't just stand there. Your job is to help them out, fight for them. If you don't, you might as well pack your bag, you're no use to us.' So I went out and fought. That was always my job, eh? I didn't do it to be cruel, I was just following orders."

There are many hockey experts, NHL referee-in-chief Scotty Morrison for one, who think the policeman in hockey is fast becoming obsolete. "The best way to spark your team is with a goal. As hockey schools get better, the skills get better and you don't need the rough stuff to accomplish something. In the old days of six teams, the rivalry was fierce. It was war. The policeman never talked to players on other teams off the ice. But today, you got players on different teams running the same hockey school, in the same golf tournament, with the same lawyer. It's hard to hate and fight your business partner and friend." Plus, it's a whole new culture today. The culture that gave us a Reggie Fleming is no more. Today's player is better educated and more passive, Watergate and Vietnam having taught all of us that leaders do not necessarily sit on the right hand of God, their commands to be blindly served."

"I still think you need the cop," says Fleming "it's the tough teams that win the Stanley Cup. Take this team I'm on now. I get respect. Why? Because they know I'm Reggie Fleming. Somebody's always taking a run at me so he can say he fought Reggie Fleming. It means something. Usually, though, I just push them off now. Hell, they're just kids and old men, eh? What have I got to prove?"

The Kenosha Flyers, playing before 415 fans in a cold, cheerless Madison arena that can seat 8,000, are trailing the Madison Blues 10-7 in the third period when it happens. A kid on the Blues named John Gill trips the Flyers' Steve Anderson. Anderson gets up, skates over to Gill, says something. Gill says something back. Anderson punches him in the face. The crowd roars. Gill brings his stick down on Anderson's head. Anderson collapses to the ice, and now the crowd is going wild. Across the ice charges Reggie Fleming. He lifts his stick and smashes Gill across the back of the neck, sending him to the ice. The benches empty, the fans scream, rush down from their seats to the boards, throw cups and papers on the ice. "You rotten bastard, Fleming," a voice yells. "Kill him, Kill Fleming."

A tall, skinny black kid with the Blues, Cal Harris, 23, who weighs 170 pounds, turns on Fleming. "C'mon, Fleming, drop your stick, drop it you chicken and we'll see how tough you are."

"Screw off," says Fleming, and turns away.

"Fight you coward," screams Harris, fists clenched. "Fight, you fat slob." The crowd howls for blood. Fleming skates over to the penalty box. He's shouting at the referee but it can't be heard over the noise. A fan leans over the rail and spits on Fleming's head. A half-filled cup of Coke hits Fleming on the shoulder and he turns, curses the fan and waves his stick blade in his face. "Fight, c'mon, fight," Harris is yelling in the background. "Chicken," the fans chant. "Chicken! Chicken! Chicken!"

All the wars of all the nights of the past suddenly rage through Reggie Fleming's mind and, spinning, he attacks Harris, fists up and swinging, the crowd shrieking. Fleming misses with a wild right hook. Harris slams him in the face with a right, a left, drives a right deep in to Fleming's belly. Fleming gasps, doubles over and Harris slams his head back with an uppercut. The crowd screams with delight. The other players watch. Fleming swings blindly at Harris but Harris moves in, punches him furiously in the face and head and hurls him against the boards. Harris pulls Fleming's jersey over his head, tosses him to the ice, jumps on him and flails away. Blood appears on Fleming's jersey, spreading fast like ink on a blotter. Harris doesn't let up and Fleming is helpless. It's brutal and sickening to watch and finally it's broken up. To boos and thrown debris, Fleming leaves the ice, gasping for breath, blood pouring down his battered face. He heads to the dressing room, alone, closes the door softly behind him, and sits on the bench. From far away come the crowd noises. He says nothing, takes off his jersey, throws it in a corner. He turns back, closes his eyes for a few seconds. He opens them and looks at his hands, turning them slowly. They're trembling.

"Sometimes," he says softly and haltingly, "Sometimes I wish ... I wish I could control myself just once. It's ... it's the kids. I go home and they see the cuts and bruises and--" He doesn't finish the sentence. He lifts his hands to his face. For a long time he's quiet and then, from behind the red swollen hands, a long, shuddering sigh. In the morning, the children will see him. He knows what they will ask. And he knows, as always, he won’t have an answer.


Habhopeful's picture

Good read, pretty sad though but long, thanks!

 

"I went to see a fight the other night...And A hockey game broke out!" ~Rodney Dangerfield~


Cape Breton's picture

Cape Breton

 

yea, long, but, like you say, great read. you're welcome pal.

 merry xmas.


Cape Breton's picture

Markov for captain.


PrimeTime's picture

When a goalie lets in a goal it's considered he lost the game. When your star forward doesn't get enough points to win a game why isn't he blamed for the loss?

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


The Cat's picture

Goes with the territory I guess, its unfair, kinda like a quarterback whose receivers dont take that extra step to make the occasional great play.


... from William Houston : Truth or Rumours - Has Don Cherry changed the culture of hockey? .....  http://www.truthandrumours.net/2009/12/20/has-don-cherry-changed-the-culture-of-hockey/        ........  The Don of Head Hits ... by James Mirtle .....  http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/12/20/1209934/the-don-of-head-hits#storyjump


JasonM's picture

Just read the first page of comment. People sure have been hitting the eggnog early this year. Geez.


PrimeTime's picture

Bill,

Halak is not "consistently good" but always gets that title after a win. Every GM knows of his request of "play me or trade me". If he was as good as you say, Bob would get the offer he feels he needs to make the TEAM better. Bob would even trade Price if he could make the TEAM better. That what's it's all about....not personal favorites. But Halak gets hot and cold just like most NHL goalies. To his fans, after a win, it's their calling to rant and rave about him just like his Agent Twitters. I don't hear of any such rants after a Halaka loss. Too many fans here judge each player after every game and have no sense of the bigger picture.

Does anyone here believe they know more of the In's and Out's of a Gainey's office or have more hockey experience than him or his Scouting staff who's careers depend on knowing what is going on with each and every team?? It seems the biggest attraction to sports of recent generations is following commentators who are critical of their teams. Check out Boone's Game Blog comment tally after each game. He gets more action from a loss than a win. The "critic" industry has exploded in the past 10-15 years and every fan seems to think he is one of them. Give any of them their own radio, tv, print forum to do it and they would likely be out of a job in a week. Ask Antichambre to praise the Habs after every game win or lose and they done! Pleasantry doesn't sell. Galdiators were killed in Rome for a spectacle...was the kill the attraction or the prospect that it could happen more wanting? The game is not as much the attraction as the circus that surrounds it.

In the end, the real hockey experts will make the decisions of this club and will leave the selling of the game to the media.

 

    

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


Xtrahabsfan's picture

HERE WE GO AGAIN,ANOTHER  Cary Price  butt -kisser,ya if Price were as  constant as he was made up to be  chap stick sales would go up even more.....


Nahlsy's picture

That wasn't the case at all. He made a very legitimate post and the Halak fan boys who can't handle the truth saw anything that wasn't either attacking Price or praising Halak as a reason to attack the poster making the statement. He said nothing against Halak or in favour of Price whatsoever. This bullcrap of you're wither against Price (or to a lesser degree against Halak) or against Us (as the only true Habs fans because we have this opinion or that opinion) is ridiculous.


PrimeTime's picture

Your dead wrong. Plain and simple. Do you honestly believe Halak will be a better goalie than Price in the next 2-5 years? Do you really think Halak is better now and should be the #1? I think every GM would disagree with you which says more about you than them.

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


The Cat's picture

Carey Price's supposed upside has a lot to do with his play with the Canada juniors, not too many goalies would falter tending such a stacked team. And the winners of the juniors get their 'value' raised. And I dont think just because one is a GM that it makes him a good talent evaluator, theres a few Rejean Houles in this league.


PrimeTime's picture

So Luongo and Fleury were overated based on their Team Canda performance as well? Just because a goalie is yet what he "can" be doesn't make him a a failure at 22. Gainey isn't a "Houle" who btw traded Roy who went on to earn a few more accolades.

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


The Cat's picture

Im not saying Careys a failure or that he doesnt have upside, just saying the gap in peoples perception between him and Halak is based on this... So I would say yes they get overrated vis a vis their european counterparts who didnt win. Its only natural though, same goes for players on Stanley Cup winners.


PrimeTime's picture

The World Juniors sure padded the resume and I agree that added to his value as a prospective top NHL goalie but it not alone. I like Halak too but just feel he isn't going to be as good as Price in 2-3 years. That's all I've been saying all day. If anyone disagrees that's their right to do so. Just don't be yapping that Price sucks and Halak deserves to be #1 because that simply is not the case now and not in the best interest of the club for the future imo. 


Xtrahabsfan's picture

The question is do any of us know?Ans :no,thats the truth of it.Here's a better question for you ,If by trading Price we could make the Habs a better team and increase the chances of a great play-off run ,would  or should it be done ? My ans is HELL YA!


PrimeTime's picture

Did you read my post? Read it again. I said BG should trade Price if it would make the team better. Will it happen?? Don't hold your breath.

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


21BIGGionta's picture

Trading Price will not make us have a better Playoff run because Halak is consistly good in the regular season but none of us have seen him in  a playoff round.... anything can happen i wouldn't want to hang my hopes on him because our starter in the playoffs

"one win, plan the parade; one loss, tie the noose. It’s super-emotional, it’s completely irrational, but that’s what makes it so glorious." - George Stroumboulopoulos


JasonM's picture

And we all seen Price's last 2 playoff series. :)


Nahlsy's picture

That's stupid, the Habs limped into Boston last year as cannon fodder and the year before Price carried them past the Bruins when they pulled a no show AND Halak looked brutal in the game he lost against the Flyers if you recall, Price went 1-3 and had a winning goal knocked in by a fluke off of Richard's hand in the air and the previous goal on a high stick that was never called at that.  Get off of this nonsense already.

If you guys hate Price so much, cheer for another team until he gets sick of how pathetic the fans of this team are and leaves. Then you can all turn on Halak or whatever goalie is here at that time until he gets sick of you and leaves as well.


Clay4bc's picture

Newsflash to the guy (Nahlsy) who accuses everyone of insults. You just called this person's opinion 'stupid' and called him (and others) 'pathetic' because he disagreed with your holiness. Also called his opinion 'nonsense'. No insults here from me, Nahlsy...just pointing out that this is exactly the type of post that leads others to respond to you in a negative fashion. Think about it...you truly don't notice that you do it, I believe, but you need to look in the mirror. Flame away...

__________________

"The System" is the new black.


Nahlsy's picture

Thanks for agreeing not to post to or about me in any other threads after I gave you the final childish insult above.

 

Grow up and get lost already.


ooder's picture

not that i agree with halak vs price thing because i like both goalies..

but your assesment of the flyers-habs series is totally skewed my friend.

Price was brutal that series... everything went in on him..

the habs would get 40 shots on net while the flyers would get 20 and we would still lose.

and Halak was not brutal... the team was tied until Begin took a stupid penalty and flyers scored on a PP goal.

also don't forget.. Halak didn't play in about 10 games prior and was thrust into a desperate situation.


Nahlsy's picture

Well we disagree. Biron played 4 of the best games of his life and kept the Flyers alive, the Habs offense disappeared and weren't going to the net properly. Neither one of the Habs goalies managed to win or lose the series though. Price took the first game, was struggling with something in games 2 & 3 (I still believe his hand was injured by a slash against the Bruins as he favoured it for the next few weeks and got a new glove with extra padding, missed game 4 vs Philly with it etc but, we'll never know the full story there), Halak struggled a bit in game 4, Price came back with a new glove in game 5 and played a decent game with a couple of bad bounces that I felt were terribly blown calls but, it happens. The end result though was that Halak and Price both took losses in that series against a very good young team. Here's a news flash though, every goalie has been on the losing end of a playoff series at some point in their lives and that was the Habs's turn. I don't feel it wipes out the heroics of the goalie that stood on his head to beat the Bruins when the team bailed for the second half of the series out after taking the first couple of games. How quickly everyone forgets the game 7 shut out???

So we may disagree but, the idea of telling me I am wrong because you have a different opinion isn't going to win your arguement much consideration. In my opinion you are dead wrong, so I suppose we're even there.


Xtrahabsfan's picture

Are you pulling this out of your crystal ball of some other deeper darker place?


SeriousFan09's picture

Well you seem to believe that Halak will be a playoff goalie to take Montreal on a huge playoff run so you must be each consulting a crsytal ball really.

 

- I shall always remember Captain Koivu. http://habsandhockey.blogspot.com/


Xtrahabsfan's picture

No ,I believe  BOTH GET THE JOB DONE ,but Price has the big blockbuster trade value and packaged with another (gomez? )could get the Habs what this team needs a real superstar(Lafleur,Roy)....been way too long without one!


PrimeTime's picture

Like who? name a "real superstar" we could get for Price, Gomez plus or any combination thereof? Name the player we could get? You think Kovalchuk will win us the cup? I don't. Hossa didnt do it the past 2 finals and he's the same player.

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


Xtrahabsfan's picture

Kovalchuck is some one to build around and he's young...


PrimeTime's picture

He's a UFA at the end of this year.

Price is also young and someone you can build around.

Just a matter of priorities I guess. When a goalie lets in a goal it's considered he lost the game. When your star forward doesn't get enough points to win a game is he blamed for the loss?

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


21BIGGionta's picture

I think every GM would disagree with most of the stuff people write on this site.... half of the people have no clue what they're talking about. Kind of funny yet weirdly entertaining...thats probably why i keep posting.

"one win, plan the parade; one loss, tie the noose. It’s super-emotional, it’s completely irrational, but that’s what makes it so glorious." - George Stroumboulopoulos


SeriousFan09's picture

Oh give it a rest with the Price Hate-Wagon, those horses are tired of you whipping them all day long while you try and spread the word about the evil Bob Gainey and how he's forcing this supposedly sub-standard Goalie on us.

Halak's not that good and hasn't risen to the task against Contenders this season and that's a fact you can look up in the stats for this season. If Price is traded and Halak doesn't perform to your expectations, I'm sure you'll cry to trade Halak and have Cedrick Desjardins up here instead.

 

- I shall always remember Captain Koivu. http://habsandhockey.blogspot.com/


21BIGGionta's picture

Wow. just because he's not praising Halak like crazy doesn't mean he's a Carey Price butt-kisser.. and grow up by the way...

"one win, plan the parade; one loss, tie the noose. It’s super-emotional, it’s completely irrational, but that’s what makes it so glorious." - George Stroumboulopoulos


Ian Cobb's picture

We have the best two young goal tenders in the league. Bob will keep them both under contract for the next 3 years for sure. By then Pk and others would have moved up to the Club starting with PK next year and the rest over the next two years as they mature.

Our cup team's are 3 to 4 years away, but by next year we will be making a noise in the play offs that will get people's attention around the league.


PrimeTime's picture

No we don't. We have one of the best young goalkeepers in the league. I'll let each argue which one they prefer but I can ensure you that given the choice there isn't a single GM who would take Halak over Price. So that means Halak either signs with Habs or waits for a contract offer from another GM and Gainey doesn't match. Desjardin becomes our back up next year. I think PK stays 1 more year as a Dog unless he drastically improves on his defensive responsibilities. But I agreee we are 2-3 years away from gaining any deep playoff experience.

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


Mr.Hazard's picture

Although I don't disagree, how are you claiming to know what every GM in the league would choose?

"love cannot drown truth, Nefertiti"


K-hab25's picture
I agree 110%!!! Price has given up more than 3 goals in regulation twice in 25 starts. Halak on the other hand has given up more than 3 goals in regulation 5 times in 12 starts. He's VERY INCOSISTENT!! For example !! CAL - 4 ATL - 1 NYI - 1 NYR - 4 NYI - 2 PIT - 4 TOR - 4 CGY - 1 BUF - 6 OTT - 1 BUF - 4 NYI - 0 If you think this is being consistent, maybe you should pick up a dictionary!!

PrimeTime's picture

I don't want either Price or Halak to go but one of them will. IMO Price has more upside than Halak and he's who we should keep. Halak won't be much different in 2-3 yrs than he is now. On the other hand Price will be a Top 5. The only reason fans trash Price and his "glove hand" is because he hasn't lived up thwe hype but then again who could have?? He'sd not Roy so he's no good? Ask Roy or Brodeur or any other great one and they will all say Price has the tools to be the best of his generation. So who do you stick with??

 

"Don't play to get into the Playoffs - Play to WIN the Division" IT'S A TEAM GAME - Go Habs Go!


The Cat's picture

Thats because the press have asked Roy and Brodeur about Price (I know they did ask Brodeur while in Montreal), and he said Price'd be great someday, but really what did you expect him to say?


K-hab25's picture
I've posted many times on here before that the biggest difference in peoples view of Price and Halak are one has low expectations ie just be solid and the other has high expectations ie be great. Like the "consistent" tag that's placed on Halak which facts show is completely false, and the "weak glove hand" of Price which isn't backed up by any facts at all. The guy from Robert L. site showed facts of how Halak's glove hand was actually worse, his game by game stats show he's inconsistent and his trade me remarks tells you he's more worried about "me" than "team". So who would I stick with, the same guy who every GM in the league would take if they had to choose between Price and Halak. Price , I'll leave Halak for the Price haters and media trying to stir up cotroversy to sell papers.

Mr.Hazard's picture

He didn't say "trade me". Roy said "trade me". And after 3 years of being forced into Price's shadow, you have no right to shun him for being more worried about himself than the team. The team makes it clear time and again that he's not a priority. Why should he put the team ahead of himself in such a situation?

"love cannot drown truth, Nefertiti"


K-hab25's picture
Actually I have every right to think however I please comrade. Kinda like you crapping on Price every chance you get for any little thing. Sergei did the same thing as Halak and was ripped apart for it. No Halak fanboy is going to tell me that Halak shouldn't be held to the same standard.

Mr.Hazard's picture

1. I said "no right to shun", not "no right to think".

2. I don't crap on Price for every little bad thing. No more than I praise him for every good thing.

3. You're more accuratley described as a fanboy than I.

"love cannot drown truth, Nefertiti"


sidhu's picture

Boone, I agree with your concern about MaxPower's scoring ability.  When I see him skating out there and the way he's taken hits, I'm afraid he's one hit away from a concussion -- teams seem to be targeting him or noticing he has his head down, I'm thinking he's pressing his luck out there.  For a power forward, I'd expect him to be the one dishing out hits rather than mainly absorbing them.


Bill's picture

Since everyone is talking about the goalies, I'll throw in my two cents:

When he's on, Price is far better than Halak, and better than most goalies in the NHL. That's my opinion. When he went on that little run a few weeks back after the whole Allan Walsh thing, he was lights-out, unconscious, in the zone, just flawless.

Halak, I feel, is more consistent, though. You know you're going to get solid goaltending, a few rebounds, but tremendous focus.

Very often, it appears - I say appears because there is no real to know - that Price's head is not completely in the game. When he's not focussing, he let's in those long floaters, and Price defenders take note, they really do matter. It's deflating and discouraging. As I say, that only happens when he seems to be not 100% zoned-in.

The question is, do you want consistent good, or do you want potential greatness mixed with occasional WTF?

 

Full Breezer 4 Life


Da Hema's picture

I agree completely with your assessment of Price. There certainly appears to be an issue with his focus and concentration--which is puzzling since Montreal's goalies get a lot of work each game. Price reminds me of Phil Myre, the former potentially great goalie for the Atlanta Flames. Because of his physical talent, Myre was capable of making the most arresting of saves. Yet, like Price, he would allow the most deflating and demoralising goals. It is why Myre is now a footnote in NHL history rather than in the Hall of Fame. I don't know how one can teach concentration to an NHL player, but Price will never be a good goalie if he cannot find a way to focus.

------------------------

”Playing goal is like being shot at.”

--Jacques Plante


21BIGGionta's picture

"potential Greatness mixed with the occasional WTF?" lol thats hilarious

great post. And i would go with Price because consistent isn't very relying in the playoffs (not that im saying the habs will make it to the playoffs this year...but who knows?) i would Rather price because as you said when he's in it man is he ever in it. and not all goalies are solid on every shot they get it's just how it is.

"one win, plan the parade; one loss, tie the noose. It’s super-emotional, it’s completely irrational, but that’s what makes it so glorious." - George Stroumboulopoulos


K-hab25's picture
Halak is more consistent at being inconsistent. He's given up 4 or more goals in almost half of his starts, 5 times in 12 starts. Price in 25 starts has given up 4 or more goals in just 3 starts and only twice in regulation. Maybe you should look up the definition of consistent, because I don't think you know what it means. Jaro should send the Iles a christmas present, 3 GGA in 3 games against them and 29 GGA in his other 9 starts. Hmmmmm!!