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What a surprise ... NOT!
posted by Mike Boone at 19h58 EST on Jun 21
It's all about the Benjamins, baby.
Hossa made $7 million this season. Pittsburgh was said to be offering $50 million to $52 million over seven years.
Come July 1, Hossa will be the most sought-after free agent on the market ... especially if the Canadiens sign Mats Sundin and San Jose can re-up Brian Campbell.
Some team - the smart money is on Boston - will offer Hossa a Daniel Briere contract.
Pittsburgh gm Ray Shero, allegedly one of the NHL's best and brightest, will have paid Colby Armstrong, Eric Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a first-round draft choice for the three-month rental of a future Bruin.
And we can all have a group shudder, thinking how close Canadiens came to trading for this guy.
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Bill H, just to make sure, my comment wasnt directed at you, its just over time I always received some flack for not thinking Gainey is a genius etc if you will. Of course theres nothing wrong with optimism, I will be first to say I was wrong about him, but this team is so different than the Dallas one he built and it puzzles me. And like I said before,I think the habs got lucky last year: no injuries, easier schedule than most teams, a powerplay that was unreal and the difference in a lot of games, and in my opinion it'll be hard for those 3 things to repeat again this year, but I hope they do.
Cat, I didn't take your comment to be directed at me. I'm glad to hear that you see nothing wrong with some optimism. Perhaps I misunderstood your comments. I agree we were lucky with injuries last year, although it would appear that Komi, Markov (and maybe Streit, if I am remembering correctly) were all playing hurt at the end and were less than stellar as a result. And our offence was too dependent on a #1 ranked PP, as you point out. We probably won't be as lucky with injuries this year, although I hope depth and balance have something to do with avoiding injury to key players. I hope that with the addition of Tanguay and maybe Sundin that our offence will be even more potent than last year and that we can avoid an overdependence on the PP.
I don't know enough about Gainey's Dallas team to make comparisons, but its obvious that the NHL has changed quite a bit since Dallas won the Cup, as have the strategies for putting together a winning team. What would be surprising is if Gainey were still using today the same tired old tactics he used in Dallas.
I think that you also have to consider luck, fate, and hindsight when you evaluate the moves of both these GMs. Gainey pushed hard to sign both Briere and Smyth which would have eaten up a lot of cap room and basically have placed us on the sidelines for a few years in terms of trading or signing other UFA players. Both the rumoured Montreal deadline deals for Hossa and Sundin would have been ultra expensive and in all likelihood would not have produced a Cup, or even a Cup final meeting with Detroit. Shero made a real gutsy and/or reckless move depending on how you view things but the fact remains the Pens came within two games of winning it all. Who knows what would have happened in the final if Malkin could have found his regular season form.
We wanted a top six forward and now we have one. Not a drafted prospect that will take years to develop, but a guy who can step in and contribute right away. A guy who is in the prime of his career and by all accounts wants to come to Montreal. We didn't get the big centre we needed by trading for Jokinen or Carter, but we may just land one of the best for little cost to our roster. (I can't believe Gainey would give up Higgins, there has to be another deal in place). I also believe our RFAs will sign and if we can bring back Halak then we will be in good shape. Add another mid level defenseman and we're golden.
We were lucky not to be able to sign any big name UFAs during the past few years and fate was on our side that the proposed trade deadline deals fell through. Regardless, today the Habs are closer to the Cup than they were a few days ago and they might be really close if Gainey's trip to Sweden is successful. In hindsight, Gainey certainly has to be feeling better about his team's present day alterations than Shero is right now.
The Original 24 Cups
well said, Steve! I'll go with the gutsy move thing.
24 - Very good post and thought out , and nobody mentions if Malkin was healthy how the finals would of gone and it obviously would have been much closer though the Pens must find a system or systems that suits them a la the Ducks , Canes and the Red Wings. I agree that Briere would of had difficulty with the Habs but Smyth might not have fit in at the time but his style is what we need right now in front of the net. My take on Briere is that he must have the right elements to play with otherwise he's invisible but he's a stealthy sniper in the right situation, glad we didn't sign him. Yes we got a top 6 forward in Tanguay whose value would increase immensely if we can sign Sundin , Sundin is the "key" otherwise it's Tanguay = Ryder + 2.45 million and that's a lot of money for skating and consistency minus grit. Getting nothing for Ryder really hurts this deal. I don't believe the Higgy for Sundin one bit and Jokinen would have been great but cost roster players with numb nuts Martin anyway he would of had problems with Carbo as would Ryan Smyth if he had signed cuz he would of had to play 2nd fiddle to Carbo's boy Lats, lol. Like that mid level "D" man , enjoy.
Basil McRae who is in his 1st year as amateur scout for the Blues and at the draft table of the Blues when his son Phillip was drafted #33 must of felt uneasy as well as proud ... read more about Basil who had 99 fights in his 16 season NHL career and his son.... http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/blues/story/907C1A9B...
Interesting that the Habs 7th round pick Patrick Johnson is the grandson of Badger Bob Johnson (Stanley Cup winning coach with the Pens and son of Mark who played for the US "Miracle on Ice" 1980 Olympic Team which i read in an article "Canadiens among winners as draft concludes" in the Tennessean.... http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080621/SPORTS02/8...
And while Gainey isn't a stiff, he isn't the genius you all seem to desperately want to believe he is. He has been signing players that, in a nutshell, no other team really needs or wants, or willing to take a chance on. I'm not saying they're bad signings, just that they're not massive coups or the works of a genius. When the team actually wins something, then you can praise him all you want.
Predicted to finish out of the playoffs, Montreal went on to win the Eastern Conference during the regular season. He also won a Cup in Dallas. So what are you going to say when he brings a Cup to Montreal?..."well, he hasn't built a dynasty yet so you can't call him a genius." Okay, he's not a genius, just a very skilled GM. Does that make you happy? I don't see anything wrong with a little bit of optimism and enthusiasm, especially after a decade of bad times.
And just who are these players Gainey is signing that "no other team really needs or wants, or willing to take a chance on".
hammer? kostop? smolinski? I was very happy with those off-season signings.
I dont think Shero is surprised this is happening. Im sure he knew -that at best- in the end hed be in a position to choose between Hossa or Malkin. Hossa ALWAYS said he would test the waters -I believe I mentioned it a few times here as well, so who cares if there was one reporter who probably backed Hossa into a corner and extracted the answer he wanted to hear.... On the whole though, I got to think it was a bad move to give up what he did for Hossa to begin with. I'm sure he knew it was a gamble, but it almost paid off with a cup.
Ray Shero seems to be painting himself into a corner with his ridiculous signings. He doesn't seem to put the future into consideration when making these deals.
TommyB is right on the money. All of the posters who criticized Gainey for not pulling the trigger on a horrible Hossa deal during the deadline will be all silent now.
Funny thing isn't it? We now have Tanguay not to mention potential UFA's and so far we've only given up two draft picks and no key roster players. And we still have some room under the salary cap.
Man that Bob Gainey is such a stiff of a GM isn't he?
It's not that Bob didn't pull the trigger it was that Atlanta chose the crap that Pittsburg offered instead.I'm elated now that Bob has pulled a trade and now is after Sundin.But think of this,How smart would Bob be now if he did trade Higgins and a first to Toronto last year for Mats and he decides not to play this year.No Tanguay trade and no Sundin and No Higgins and no first this year.Kinda lucky eh
Your 2nd paragraph "Funny thing.....there was a guy for the laffs that lost his job for doing the same thing and i don't think you called him a genius.
Bryan, how do you compare what Gainey has done versus JFJ? I don't see the parallel my friend.
Sul - You talk of giving away 2 good draft choices in good draft years as if it's a bargain (nothing there) and time will tell if your right yet you have been very critical of the laffs and JFJr for doing the same thing (trading valuable picks). Time will tell if this trade was good and IMO Tanguay is only a fit if we get Sundin as Tanguay alone isn't what we really need. There was rumours all last year Tanguay for Ryder plus a little bit , now we settle for Tanguay + plus 2.45 million in salary (difference between Tanguay's and Ryder's contracts) + 5th round (Maxim Trunev) for a valuable 1st as well as a 2nd in a good draft year and nothing for Ryder "(ZIP)", but if we obtain Mats services i would think different and be happy. The Tanguay trade is nothing to pound your chest for or brag about under the circumstances. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Granted Ryder's brother Danny (2nd round pick) bolting the Flames farm team to go back to NL didn't help matters. A player being traded for valuable draft picks can only be judged in at least five years , remember Ryan Getzlaf, lol. Enjoy.
Bryan - I agree that we gave up two draft picks but I look at it from the perspective that our draft pick was very high in the first round (25th overall) and the 2nd round pick was in exchange for Huet.
So if I look at the trade being Huet, a first round pick (albeit high one) in exchange for Tanguay and 5th R. pick then I think it's a good deal.
We did have to eat a bit on the salary cap but the media and some fans have been screaming for a french-speaking player.
Ryder was a waste especially since we didn't play him at all in the playoffs but I don't think Calgary wanted him otherwise I'm sure we would have dealt him at the trade deadline.
Indeed, we will have to wait a few years to see how this deal pans out. It could be another Getzlaf situation or it could be another Kovalev situation (Balej and 2nd R.).
Explain how you compare what the Laffs did to what Gainey has done ????...I don't get it ????
I certainly don't think he is a stiff, my friend but I'm also not in the Ray Shero is an idiot club either. Shero thought his team was close, made the trade and came within 2 games of winning the Stanley Cup. I have no problem with him doing it.
I also have no problem with Gainey deciding the price was to high for Hossa. However, Gainey made the same kind of deal to acquire Kovalev a few years ago. So it seems a little hypocritical to turn around and criticsize Shero for doing the same thing unless they also criticized Gainey for the Kovalev trade a few years ago.
my point being, I think both Gainey and Shero have done a good job as GM's for their teams.
Earl - I would have criticized Gainey if he had dealt whatever Atlanta was asking for in return for Hossa (Higgins, Kostitsyn, O'Byrne and 1st R).
He didn't so I think that was a smart move in hindsight. I've never said I was in the Ray Shero is an idiot club but I'm not a big fan either. If his short-term goal was to win the Cup he failed. Roll of the dice or not.
Long-term I think the ramifications are more serious giving up four young assets (Christensen, Armstrong, Esposito, 1st R.) for someone who left.
I also disagree on your hypocrisy statement. You can't compare what Gainey traded for Kovalev (Balej and 2nd R.) to what Shero dealt. Not the equivalent assets that were dealt.
I will tell you this. If Gainey had traded that many assets for Kovalev then I would have criticized him as well.
I thought the deal for Kovalev was Josef Balej and a second-round pick....Maybe I'm wrong....If I'm not, thats not even close the the Pens deal !!!!!!
the point being, Gainey made a trade at the deadline to load up his team for a playoff run. He also had a deal in place for Sundin, that according to many sources would have cost the Habs Higgins. So again, to bang on Shero for making a huge trade at the deadline is a little hypocritical to me. Unless people are also going to criticize Gainey. I don't think either needs to be criticized.
Was the Kovalev deal as big a trade as the Hossa deal, of course not. Hossa is a much more valuable asset than Kovalev was/is at the time.
Montreal was a 8th place team trying to make the playoffs and win a series or two, Pittsburgh was a first place team, trying to win a Cup. The point being, again both took a short-term approach to improve their teams.
I'm with you (again), Earl.
Ray Shero rolled the dice on winning the Cup. You can't knock that. But he has dealt what McGuire calls four "cap-friendly" assets for a player who's going to walk.
But that's the salary cap/UFA NHL: high rish, high reward.
I think it will be the dominate trend of the new era. High risk, high reward, not a game for the faint of heart.
Cap friendly assets are an important ingredient to bring a Cup home. I think that was your point, and I agree. I guess we will see what it cost the Pens by how they do this year. You can say they came within 2 games of the Cup, but what I saw was a Red Wing team that dominated the series and almost brought it home in 5 games. It wasn't that close. And Mike, you are slurring your Ks again ("high rish"). Better lay off the sauce when you are making late night posts. ;-)
Gainey gave up Josef Balej and a pick I believe for Kovalev, nothing close to what Shero gave up IMHO Earl.
Not even close to being a similar situation. We we really contenders at that point?
Now if the Rangers took Plekanec, it might be a different story, but they didn't. Thank god.
Agreed...Shero gave up way more to get Hossa than Gainey gave up to get Kovalev. The calibre of the players is comparable, but not what they gave up.
I like Kovalev a ton but he ain't even close to Marian Hossa's class.